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Black Maverick

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posted on 7.18.2010 at 01:41 AM

The Ascendancy of Obama, The Continued Need for Resistance and Liberation:A Dialogue with Cornel West and Carl Dix

This is a Dialogue/Debate between Democratic Socialist Cornel West and Maoist Carl Dix on the Obama presidency and the current state of the Black Community. Discuss after watching!

Part I: Dialogue/Debate

Part II: Debate & Q&A

Free Mumia Abu Jamal

Tea_Honey

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posted on 7.20.2010 at 01:19 AM

I finally got around to looking at the video. Well, starting. Then I noticed there was nothing to say how "long" the video was. Checked. The first video is something like 2 hours long!!!!

I am not a fan of Cornel West, do not consider him to be particularly insightful or even relevant to the black struggle. A couple minutes, maybe even 10 minutes. But TWO freakin' HOURS!!!??? To listen to socialists that I consider to be totally irrelevant to the black community?

:sorry:

I'll pass.

All truth passes through three stages: 1) it is ridiculed, 2) it is violently opposed and 3) it is accepted as being self-evident.....
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it
Choose your hypnotist well

Black Maverick

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posted on 7.21.2010 at 12:43 AM

Quote:

I am not a fan of Cornel West, do not consider him to be particularly insightful or even relevant to the black struggle...

Why?

Free Mumia Abu Jamal

Tea_Honey

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posted on 7.21.2010 at 12:57 AM

I saw him on a round tab le with Tavis Smiley, minister Farrakken and several other prominents and intellectuals. He came off as Uncle Tomish. I've read a couple of his speeches, etc. and found he only parrots 1960's black nationalist rhetoric, only with an integrationist twist and flava. I have yet to hear anything "original" come out of his mouth.

Black Maverick

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posted on 7.21.2010 at 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tea_Honey
I saw him on a round tab le with Tavis Smiley, minister Farrakken and several other prominents and intellectuals. He came off as Uncle Tomish. I've read a couple of his speeches, etc. and found he only parrots 1960's black nationalist rhetoric, only with an integrationist twist and flava. I have yet to hear anything "original" come out of his mouth.

Well, Cornel, in his defense, is a very wise person and he is pretty damn intellectual. However, Cornel believes that America has a potential to come together and bring about true democratic possibilities. I think he has the position he does because he feels there has to be a voice of moral outcry. Cornel is not an uncle Tom, not to me anyways. He is just more of a reformer, he is not a revolutionary. At the end of the day, he defends the black freedom struggle and speaks truth about the white supremacist power structure. You just have to remember Cornel West is a christian, and the black church hasn't exactly embraced more "revolutionary" ideas. The black Church has mostly had a conciliatory position when it comes to the struggle; I blame the "wait on the lord" thinking.

I like Prof. West because he has inspired me to seek truth and justice, but I am not gonna fault the brother just because he isn't waving a red,green and black flag lol.

Free Mumia Abu Jamal

Tea_Honey

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posted on 7.21.2010 at 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Black Maverick

Quote:

Well, Cornel, in his defense, is a very wise person and he is pretty damn intellectual.

You asked why I said what I did. I wasn't looking to debate the intelligence of Cornel. But I will say I don't think he's in the least bit "wise." As for being an intellectual, plenty of people who get it wrong are intellectuals. :dunno:

Quote:

However, Cornel believes that America has a potential to come together and bring about true democratic possibilities.

So does EVERY integrationist!

Quote:

I think he has the position he does because he feels there has to be a voice of moral outcry.

I disagree.

Quote:

Cornel is not an uncle Tom, not to me anyways. He is just more of a reformer, he is not a revolutionary. At the end of the day, he defends the black freedom struggle and speaks truth about the white supremacist power structure.

And yet he calls white people his "brothers."

Quote:

You just have to remember Cornel West is a christian, and the black church hasn't exactly embraced more "revolutionary" ideas. The black Church has mostly had a conciliatory position when it comes to the struggle; I blame the "wait on the lord" thinking.

Stop reading Cornel West and read some REAL history of the black struggle. Without the black church, there would never have been ANY struggle.

Quote:

I like Prof. West because he has inspired me to seek truth and justice, but I am not gonna fault the brother just because he isn't waving a red,green and black flag lol.

You are a socialist. By default, you are an integrationist so I'd be shocked if you even owned a red, black and green..... seriously. :yes:

Check out the next post to see your fallacious statement about the black church..... :smh:

(at the Miseducation of black youth)

Tea_Honey

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posted on 7.21.2010 at 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tea_Honey
Someone brought up institutional racism on another thread. I asked, 'what is institutionalized racism'? No one could answer.

The concept of institutions seems to be a slippery one for most people. Example:

The black church is an institution. You can grow in it, turn to it for solace, run your life by its principles. Notice that I didn't say any particular church such as the Baptist church, or name any particular preacher. The Black Church's existence is not dependent on any particular denomination or preacher to exist - preachers come and go, the popularity of denominations come and go. The black church exists because black people worship God, support it financially and emotionally, and follow the teachings, instructions and religious philosophies of the various denominations led by preacher men and women that come under its umbrella.

Institutional racism is an even more slippery concept (thinking about it, I have discussed it with others only ONCE in my life - when I was in my 20's!). I said that institutions are not necessarily buildings. An example would be the Banking Industry. An industry as an institution, not as a building with vaults and tellers. When we were talking about institutionalized racism in the 1970's, I used the banking industry as an example of institutionalized racism:

An institution exists to perpetuate itself, not any particular individual, office or entity. It does this by, basically, taking care of its own. To build a house, to finance a business, to renovate a neighborhood, etc., one usually goes to a bank and takes out a loan. Codified within the institution in the 1970's was a rule (pre-dating the FDIC) that said banks were not to make free and easy with their depositors money, i.e., they were not to make risky loans. If it were financially prudent to lend to only one of two borrowers, the most financially stable borrower was to get the loan.

The preceding is/was an example of "institutional racism". Institutional because no particular individual or bank made up the rule. Any individual or bank that broke the rule and loaned its depositors' money to the riskier borrower - who subsequently defaulted - was subject to sanctions - the individual to the bank; the bank to the federal government.

The "racism" part came in because in the 1970's - and even today - most black wannabe borrowers to start up businesses, especially, although possessing "vision" were hard-pressed to meet the experience, personal assets, and other "stability" tests to merit substantial loans. Thus, banks with black depositors in black communities, by adhering to fiduciary responsibility as laid down by the banking industry, financed the building or re-building of white communities while for lack of capital, their own black communities crumbled around them.

The banking institution secured its existence by paying small interest to black depositors while at the same time, by weeding out, by denying loans to black people. Not by design, but by its practices, policies and procedures, the institution of banking was racist.

This is the way it was in the 1970's. I am not a banker so I can't say definitively how banks operate today. However, institutions, like people, have to change with the times in order to survive, so I do know that with the growth and wealth of the institution, the rules have been modified to allow for "risk" loans, i.e., SOME black borrowers.

The preceding is an example of what institutionalized racism is and how it works. Nothing personal against blacks; simply that to perpetuate its existence, whites qualify and blacks don't.

And:

Quote:

Originally posted by Tea_Honey
The preceding post on Institutions and Institutionalized Racism shows the need for BLACK institutions. Our ONE institution (as far as I know), the Black Church, spent itself in service to its membership during the Civil Rights Movement. Even so, it proves the value and necessity of developing institutions... and more than just one.

Without the black church, the Civil Rights Movement would never have happened. But more importantly, though bowed, weakened and spent, it LIVES! If you destroy one church, another will rise up to take its place (and congregation). If you kill one preacher, another will rise up to take his/her place. Though the people and offices come, go and change, the institution perpetuates itself and LIVES -- for the benefit of BLACK parishoners.

The black church is an example of what I said about YT being able to co-opt, infiltrate and/or destroy organizations and tangible assets of nation-building such as stone and mortar buildings, farms, etc. Try as he might, he can't destroy our one institution, the Black Church. If YT burned down every black church in America today, tomorrow we'd be holding service in each others' houses, or under shade trees, 2, 3 or a hundred strong.

Black Maverick

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posted on 7.22.2010 at 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tea_Honey

Quote:

Originally posted by Black Maverick

Quote:

Well, Cornel, in his defense, is a very wise person and he is pretty damn intellectual.

Quote:

However, Cornel believes that America has a potential to come together and bring about true democratic possibilities.

So does EVERY integrationist!

Quote:

I think he has the position he does because he feels there has to be a voice of moral outcry.

I disagree.

Quote:

And yet he calls white people his "brothers."

Quote:

Stop reading Cornel West and read some REAL history of the black struggle. Without the black church, there would never have been ANY struggle.

Quote:

I like Prof. West because he has inspired me to seek truth and justice, but I am not gonna fault the brother just because he isn't waving a red,green and black flag lol.

You are a socialist. By default, you are an integrationist so I'd be shocked if you even owned a red, black and green..... seriously. :yes:

Check out the next post to see your fallacious statement about the black church..... :smh:

(at the Miseducation of black youth)

I have never really been fond of the church personally. but that is my stance on organized religion period. I think its more of a double edged sword more then people think it is. I mean, the church did a lot for the CRM, but its 2010. I can't start a revolutionary movement with other young people quoting Matthew.

Free Mumia Abu Jamal

Tea_Honey

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posted on 7.22.2010 at 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Black Maverick

Quote:

Originally posted by Tea_Honey

Quote:

Originally posted by Black Maverick

Quote:

Well, Cornel, in his defense, is a very wise person and he is pretty damn intellectual.

Quote:

However, Cornel believes that America has a potential to come together and bring about true democratic possibilities.

So does EVERY integrationist!

Quote:

I think he has the position he does because he feels there has to be a voice of moral outcry.

I disagree.

Quote:

And yet he calls white people his "brothers."

Quote:

Stop reading Cornel West and read some REAL history of the black struggle. Without the black church, there would never have been ANY struggle.

Quote:

I like Prof. West because he has inspired me to seek truth and justice, but I am not gonna fault the brother just because he isn't waving a red,green and black flag lol.

You are a socialist. By default, you are an integrationist so I'd be shocked if you even owned a red, black and green..... seriously. :yes:

Check out the next post to see your fallacious statement about the black church..... :smh:

(at the Miseducation of black youth)

What's your "stance" on the Black Church? My stance on the Black Church.... and everything else.... is that the truth will set you free. Making up stuff DISPROVED BY REALITY will keep one's mind muddled, confused, and ultimately, enslaved to those do DO learn from the lessons of history and are neither offended by nor afraid of, the truth.

P.S.

As for not being able to "start a revolutionary movement" by quoting Matthew..... tell that to Nat Turner.

Like I said, those who refuse to learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. And the ONLY way to learn those lessons, is to leave the white philosophers/isms alone for a minute and actually study your black history.

Btw, it's no shame to you. In my early 20s I didn't know a fraction of the stuff I've been telling you.... even in this thread. No, the nation's schools are not set up to 'empower' us with the truth of our history, either in this country or our ancestral Africa. Which is why it is up to you, to each of us, to study and analyse through BROWN eyes, the movements of black people in this country, both current and historical. So please, accept my small "insights" in the spirit in which they are given - as my desire to impart what knowledge I have acquired to a young brutha... so he won't have to go through a lot of the bullcrap I had to wade through in life.

P.S.S.

Whenever I or others drop 'historical' names like Nat Turner, Frederick Douglass, etc., somewhere on the CL there is prolly a thread or post that gives an overview of their life/achievements. The CL can be a real resource for blacks serious about learning their history. Mr. Adams has started up a couple threads about "black people we should know more about" wherein MULTIPLE black heroes have been showcased. It's like the bible ( :whistle:

) says: Seek and ye shall find.

Black Maverick

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posted on 7.22.2010 at 02:17 PM

My stance on the black church comes from my personal experiences, mostly being raised in the Pentacostal-Apostolic church. To me the church has too much of a monopoly on the black mind. Of course, its not the black church specifically, its the church period. The church is very anti-intellectual and in my opinion, anyone can march up and down the street. Knowing why we are marching up and down the street and the political/economical implications that it will have is also very important. Being able to analyze what is going on in material reality is also important. Having a political strategy that doesn't sum up as "doing what God wants", is also important. As far as I am concerned, all that stuff is irrelevant. Oscar Grants are happening every year, black suffering is back to reconstruction levels and the political atmosphere is shifting towards the right as the American right are struggling to maintain their power. The Church quite frankly, in my opinion is important in its influence of getting black folks on board with causes, but we need to grow from that. It shouldn't take the church to get people out of their seats. THe church is a very "divisive" construct because if someone doesn't agree with a Muslim or a Christian's worldview, it all falls apart. Its a distraction to me really. The church may have served for a spiritual backbone for black people, but our problems are not just spiritual. We have some real material problems to fight against that were created by men and must have strategies that realize that. I can't have a black movement falling apart because "saved" folk don't like the language my speech or my article might have. I care about accomplishing goals, not whether my critiques fit some persons' "I am saved and I want to make it to heaven" checklist.

That and I don't like the "Prosperity Gospel" that has taken over a lot of the black church. In my opinion it implants ideas in many black people that are contributing to the problem; desiring Capitalist excesses, 'and view of human fulfillment based purely on material gain and not building communitarian structures.

Now, with all that said though I am sure there are just as many reasons that are more supportive of the church because quite frankly, my experience with the black church is more present. I am pretty sure the "Black Church" has changed a lot since then, so I can't really speak against the church then. My position on the church is based on the present state of affairs.

The Church is still a bourgeoisie institution and is more about controlling people then liberating them.

I mean, any preacher can turn the black struggle into a struggle against the devil but at the end of the day, racism is man made and thus requires man made action.

Free Mumia Abu Jamal

Tea_Honey

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posted on 7.22.2010 at 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Black Maverick
My stance on the black church comes from my personal experiences, mostly being raised in the Pentacostal-Apostolic church. To me the church has too much of a monopoly on the black mind.

First off, check back at my last post. I've added a P.S. & a P.S.S. :lol:

Secondly, more black people in 2010 DON'T go to church than do (something like only 30-40%), so there's no monopoly going on.... at least not with the MAJORITY of black folk.

Quote:

Of course, its not the black church specifically, its the church period.

Black MB/black church. As such, I don't care about "the church period." :no:

Quote:

The church is very anti-intellectual

And science is very anti-faith. :dunno:

Quote:

and in my opinion, anyone can march up and down the street. Knowing why we are marching up and down the street and the political/economical implications that it will have is also very important.

I'm not getting this. What do you mean by "anyone" can march up and down the street? Who just marches up and down streets for no reason? I mean, your next sentence kind of negates this.... :headscratch:

I mean unless of course you're "sneering" at disciplined, determined 'ain't gone let nobody turn me around' blacks who marched up and down streets proclaiming their dignity as human beings and rights as Americans in the 60s, while being surrounded by white mobs boiling over with rage and hate, thus subject to being beaten in their march with live electric cattle prods, chewed on by 120 pound German Shephard dogs, pummeled with and bowled over by water hoses shooting water at 100 miles hour (enough to take the bark of trees), being spit upon and otherwise attacked by citizen whites lining their 'march up and down streets...'? :ummm:

Quote:

Being able to analyze what is going on in material reality is also important. Having a political strategy that doesn't sum up as "doing what God wants", is also important.

Even Hitler said God was on his side...... :ummm:

Quote:

As far as I am concerned, all that stuff is irrelevant. Oscar Grants are happening every year, black suffering is back to reconstruction levels and the political atmosphere is shifting towards the right as the American right are struggling to maintain their power. The Church quite frankly, in my opinion is important in its influence of getting black folks on board with causes, but we need to grow from that. It shouldn't take the church to get people out of their seats. THe church is a very "divisive" construct because if someone doesn't agree with a Muslim or a Christian's worldview, it all falls apart. Its a distraction to me really.

You're an athetist?

Whateva. 99% of us need someone to articulate a program for us to follow, so to say it shouldn't take the church to get people out of their seats begs the question of.... if not the church, who? For ex., people like to say "you can't legislate morality." And yet, 99% of the laws of EVERY nation - regardless of the "ism" - are based on RELIGIOUS morality! Murder, theft, even coveting thy neighbor's wife DIVORCE laws. They all are based on religious teachings.

It is not the Black Church, the ONLY institution in the black community that has served us WELL and FAITHFULLY throughout our sojourn in this country, that is the root cause of our condition. And I'll be DAYMMED if it's some "ism". You even posted a video of a socialist-styled commune and lauded its success. I just didn't feel like pointing out.... to ME... the obvious: there were NO black people in that commune/Socialist community! Not one. ALWAYS it comes back to race and racism. If that "socialist" community even hinted that it was non-racial, that any interested blacks could join them, half the blacks in that state would beat a path to their door! And we know this is so.... through the lessons history has taught us.

Remember Jim Jones who preached his all-inclusive, non-racial message at black churches and when he finished his sermon in some, half the dayum congreation walked out behind him? Remember his SOCIALIST commune in South America.... that was full to the brim with black members?

Another lesson one can learn from Jim Jones and Jonestown, Guyana(?) - Diss black leadership to follow whites and don't be surprised when you're required... REQUIRED, not asked... to drink the :koolaid:

Quote:

That and I don't like the "Prosperity Gospel" that has taken over a lot of the black church. In my opinion it implants ideas in many black people that are contributing to the problem; desiring Capitalist excesses, 'and value human fulfillment on material gain and not building communitarian structures.

I don't believe "prosperity gospel" has taken over a "lot" of black churches. MOST black churches are storefronts. Those churches are usually fire and brimstone and seek only to survive. Some mega-churches (how many are there?) preach a prosperity gospel to their ALREADY prosperous members, but even the qualifier "a lot" doesn't really apply to the majority of black churches.

Quote:

Now, with all that said though I am sure there are just as many reasons that are more supportive of the church because quite frankly, my experience with the black church is more present. I am pretty sure the "Black Church" has changed a lot since then, so I can't really speak against the church then. My position on the church is based on the present state of affairs.

Are you a member of a Prosperity Chruch? I assure you, walk down the block. There's a fire and brimstone either on the corner or around it. Don't base your "position" on the miniscule few black churches who practice what you find abhorrent.

Quote:

The Church is still a bourgeoisie institution and is more about controlling people then liberating them.

Most black churches seek to "liberate" their parisoners' spirits and souls and I find nothing wrong with that. Now "controlling" people? To what end?

Quote:

I mean, any preacher can turn the black struggle into a struggle against the devil but at the end of the day, racism is man made and thus requires man made action.

I agree. But isn't that the JOB DESCRIPTION of a minister - to teach his parisoners to struggle against the devil? Is it really the "job description" of the minister to cure the WORLDLY ills of humanity?

Black Maverick

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posted on 7.22.2010 at 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tea_Honey

First off, check back at my last post. I've added a P.S. & a P.S.S. :lol:

I saw it. It was pretty insightful. Your post usually are :rock:

Quote:

Black MB/black church. As such, I don't care about "the church period." :no:

Black MB?

Quote:

And science is very anti-faith. :dunno:

Nothing is wrong with being spiritual by itself, but when it clouds logic, I have issues with that. Its like my mother, everything is always devil this or God that. I am like, things are going bad because you aren't doing this, or doing that. Its like a conversation I had with someone that was telling me how God wants us to be prosperous and have nice homes and [Censored] and I am like, "Why would God care if we owned land or own a house or were rich?"

Quote:

Perhaps I worded that poorly. What I am saying is anyone can start screaming freedom and justice but what kind of freedom what kind of justice?

Its like after the CRM everyone just sat on their butt, sucked their thumbs and retreated into their corners. Now here I am, young black person, living in a world where the older generations basically just threw their hands up in the air and now I have to do the work they supposedly were dedicated to doing. THE CRM accomplished a lot and should be looked upon with pride, but that doesn't make it immune from critique. There are some things that could have been done better. Yes, people may not like "isms" or whatever, but it doesn't hurt to have some philosophical direction. You wouldn't put together a model car without following the instructions would you?

Quote:

You're an atheist?

No, I am not an atheist. I am just a young christian man that got tired of going to church every week seeing a bunch of people run around and screaming and not doing anything to change the world except thinking Jesus is magically going to descend upon us on some magical date and fix everything. I am one of those people who like to ask "why?" a lot. For someone like myself, a church where things are based purely on "faith" don't fit well with my mental process of how I view the world. I done with the mentality of people thinking God wanted them to have some house only to have it foreclosed on. I rather just be grate and enjoy my studio apartment and not being broke by making sensible, logical decisions.

Quote:

Whateva. 99% of us need someone to articulate a program for us to follow, so to say it shouldn't take the church to get people out of their seats begs the question of.... if not the church, who?

A political party that proves itself worthy of support by action and a sound political strategy. The church is concerned with people's afterlife. The problems we face have to do with our present existence. Something about this world will pass away and we will enter a better life when we are dead; death is completely unknown and improvable, just seems something to be wary of. I don't know, to me to bet the whole struggle of black people on a institution that is more concerned with the afterlife just seems a little unwise. If religion only concerns itself with the afterlife, why utilize it as your program's basis on a issue that deals with present, current, known life? Is racism going to exist in heaven too?

Quote:

For ex., people like to say "you can't legislate morality."

What is morality?

Quote:

And yet, 99% of the laws of EVERY nation - regardless of the "ism" - are based on RELIGIOUS morality! Murder, theft, even coveting thy neighbor's wife DIVORCE laws. They all are based on religious teachings.

Quote:

It is not the Black Church, the ONLY institution in the black community that has served us WELL and FAITHFULLY throughout our sojourn in this country, that is the root cause of our condition.

Quote:

And I'll be DAYMMED if it's some "ism". You even posted a video of a socialist-styled commune and lauded its success. I just didn't feel like pointing out.... to ME... the obvious: there were NO black people in that commune/Socialist community! Not one. ALWAYS it comes back to race and racism. If that "socialist" community even hinted that it was non-racial, that any interested blacks could join them, half the blacks in that state would beat a path to their door! And we know this is so.... through the lessons history has taught us.

And Black people can't make their own communes? I said nothing about integrated communes. Black people living amongst themselves isn't going to 100% bring peace and justice to the black community. Class struggle is universal. There is nothing that empirically suggest that class struggle is a unique problem of the european character.

What if black people suddenly had their own country here in America? Or what if black people decided to unite and build up our communities? How that society and community is organized on a social and economic level would be absolutely crucial in its survival and its stability. Socialism in my opinion is still quite relevant because the black community lacks cooperation and that cooperation is not all due to external causes. The black community has some internal problems too. Anti-Racism just gets us over the mountain. Getting us to the next level is a little more extensive and seems to be a discussion that hasn't been given much thought among black intellectuals, imo.

Once racism is not an issue, those are discussions we as a people are going to have to wrestle with and to write them off, like capitalism vs socialism, would be a bit foolish. We need to have a plan not just for the present but for the future as well.

Yeah, maybe those ideas were created by white men, but guess what that is the world we know atm and what good is it to critique and fight for making a better world if we do not understand the fundamentals of the current world enough to understand why we are trying to leave it in the first place?

Socialism may have been made by a white guy but that doesn't mean we can't use it to our benefit. The white man gave black people ground up corn to eat in the fields and we turned it into grits. Just like a white man made the rotary engine design and the Japanese turned it into a workable, reliable motor. Think about it. If black people

Quote:

Remember Jim Jones who preached his all-inclusive, non-racial message at black churches and when he finished his sermon in some, half the dayum congreation walked out behind him? Remember his SOCIALIST commune in South America.... that was full to the brim with black members?

No, but I will look it up.

Quote:

Again though, fire and brimstone. More control mechanisms. Now we have fear mongering. You can't be a human being and explore your character unless you want to go to hell. So act the way we tell you too and the way this 2000 year old book that is almost irrelevant in addressing modern problems.

The day I stopped going to church, was the day my life started being a lot happier and less stressful and many people can relate to that. I rather worship God on my own terms. I deal with enough domination in my life; Capitalist class rule, white supremacy etc...

Quote:

Are you a member of a Prosperity Church? I assure you, walk down the block. There's a fire and brimstone either on the corner or around it. Don't base your "position" on the minuscule few black churches who practice what you find abhorrent.

I have been to fire and brimstone churches and I don't like them either. And some of the fire and brimstone churches teach that crap too.

One of the things that use to piss me off is how you would have all these black folks from various storefront churches and some of the older traditional churches all crowding into one church to hear some great "Prophet" preach who comes into town once in a blue moon and get people wound up and shouting till 3am in the morning. Through this "prophetic" sermon, people start walking up to the podium dropping various increments of their hard earned money at this great "prophets" feet, because he is giving this profound word of God that will materialize "checks in the mail" and new cars in people's yards if they fast for seven days. I don't know what the black church was like during the 60s but toe me, the black church I see these days doesn't seem like the kind of church that produce something like the CRM. I am not naming names or anything in this post, because people are crazy. But I am sure even some posters of heard and seen sermons of this nature or quite possibly have seen the same person I have.

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Most black churches seek to "liberate" their parishioners' spirits and souls and I find nothing wrong with that. Now "controlling" people? To what end?

Previous post.

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True, it isn't the minister's job to cure the worldly ills, but if I am trying to combat worldly ills, why would I hand my movement over to a minister? Even better, how would a movement addressing worldly ills be successful if people's only intellectual support is a minister? The Bible and the Koran say nothing about forming parties, organizing protest, and provide no theory of social change?

Didn't Malcolm say we need to stop singing and start swinging?

Free Mumia Abu Jamal

Tea_Honey

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Posts: 16497
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posted on 7.22.2010 at 08:58 PM

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Originally posted by Black Maverick

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Originally posted by Tea_Honey

First off, check back at my last post. I've added a P.S. & a P.S.S. :lol:

I saw it. It was pretty insightful. Your post usually are :rock:

Thank you.

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Black MB/black church. As such, I don't care about "the church period." :no:

Black MB?

Black Message Board.

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And science is very anti-faith. :dunno:

[color=white]If there is good in the world, there must also be evil, ergo, the 'devil' is extremely logical. Also, your mother sounds most people who want life to be "simple". Good/evil is about as simple as you can get. There's no clouding of logic. May even be a simple unwillingness to face the harshness of life, or a life that she feels she incapable of influencing, whateva.

As for your friend, I tend to laugh at such people (inwardly, of course). Maybe he truly believes it, or maybe he doesn't. No skin off my or your nose. :ummm:

Better than the old "don't try/can't win" a lot of young blacks have. :dunno:

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)You feel you shouldn't have to do anything, carry on any fighting tradition? :ummm:

Do you think the Irish have been stupid for the past couple hundred years for not laying down and letting England run roughshod over them? I mean, generation after generation of young Irishmen/women have fought the English. Perhaps they don't have this seeming feeling of "entitlement" your (AA) generation has?

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Whateva. 99% of us need someone to articulate a program for us to follow, so to say it shouldn't take the church to get people out of their seats begs the question of.... if not the church, who?

A political party that proves itself worthy of support by action and a sound political strategy.

Name one "political party" in the history of the world that got perople out of their seats....

That's not the way it works. Faith, belief, hate, rage, love, fear, compassion, i.e., EMOTIONS are what move people, not "rational" thought. There is a reason the Crusades was a religious war. There is a reason Muslims have jihads/religious wars. There WAS a reason Indians on the reservation were slaughtered in the early 20th century when they attacked white soliders with guns with sticks and stones. The Great Spirit said they were IMMUNE to the soldiers' bullets. Nothing moves human beings more than faith and belief in a power greater than themselves.

Nothing.

The church is concerned with people's afterlife. The problems we face have to do with our present existence. Something about this world will pass away and we will enter a better life when we are dead; death is completely unknown and improvable, just seems something to be wary of. I don't know, to me to bet the whole struggle of black people on a institution that is more concerned with the afterlife just seems a little unwise. If religion only concerns itself with the afterlife, why utilize it as your program's basis on a issue that deals with present, current, known life? Is racism going to exist in heaven too?

Why do you look to religion to solve worldly problems? Nonetheless, see the above on why religion is almost always an ADJUNCT to any mass movement.

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For ex., people like to say "you can't legislate morality." And yet, 99% of the laws of EVERY nation - regardless of the "ism" - are based on RELIGIOUS morality! Murder, theft, even coveting thy neighbor's wife DIVORCE laws. They all are based on religious teachings.

I don't know, I just don't like the idea that my life and decisions have no meaning by themselves and the only way my life can have structure or meaning is to follow the instruction of some 2000 year old text. Can't I just be a good person without religion? Do we really need the 10 commandments to tell us not to covet someone else's wife? I don't know, it just seems to make life nihilistic.

All I said was that 99% of all laws are based on religious belief - and not just Christian. If you wish to start the world from square One and write some law that has nothing to do with religious training, well, good luck on that. :ummm:

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It is not the Black Church, the ONLY institution in the black community that has served us WELL and FAITHFULLY throughout our sojourn in this country, that is the root cause of our condition.

I won't argue that. Yes the black church has served us well and faithfully. But institutions have their limits. What if we gain black independence? How is the church going to construct a democratic constitution that doesn't marginalize people its views do not agree with? how is the church going to craft a society or a community that is tolerant to people who don't even accept

Uh, no one, certainly not me, is saying the Black Church has all the answers to every question ever posed. "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's; unto God what is God's." Even in the bible, there is a clear distinction between church and state.

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And Black people can't make their own communes?

I was speaking of THE races, alluding to the fact that one can say Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, etc. is the problem when all we have to do is to look at examples of those "isms" in action and the FIRST thing we see is..... race. I have no problem with any "ism." I do have a problem with black people pretending that race is not the ROOT cause of black people's problems and not some 'ism.' Kinda like your mother refusing to deal with the complexities of life and holding fast to concepts of God and Devil, this is how I view people who hold fast to economic concepts being the cause of black misery in the world. What'd you call it - clouding logic?

Once racism is not an issue, those are discussions we as a people are going to have to wrestle with and to write them off, like capitalism vs socialism, would be a bit foolish. We need to have a plan not just for the present but for the future as well.

Yeah, maybe those ideas were created by white men, but guess what that is the world we know atm and what good is it to critique and fight for making a better world if we do not understand the fundamentals of the current world enough to understand why we are trying to leave it in the first place?

Like I said, study black history, current and historical. Every European philosophy can be traced back to Mother Africa, usually ancient Egypt. So no, those ideas WEREN'T created by white men......

:ummm:

Pythagoreum(?) Theorum. Think that was created/invented by a Greek named Pythagorus? Pythagorus sat at the feet of our Egyptian ancestor/scholars like a green schoolboy. All those books and disciplines credited to Aristotle? Aristotle also sat at our Egyptian forefathers' feet to learn but he took it one step further. He followed his pupil, Alexander the Great, into Egypt (Thebes?) where he sacked the libraries, took the books back to Greece and WROTE HIS NAME AS AUTHOR on each and every one. Proof? Something like a thousand books are credited to Aristotle in at least a dozen disciplines. How many people become proficient enough in ONE discipline to be able to write a book about it? It takes "time" to learn a discipline. Yet we are to beli... no, we are TAUGHT and we believe that Aristotle was a master in half, maybe a DOZEN disciplines! Not only that, but close to a thousand books? How? He lived in a time when books were written BY HAND! No typewriters or even typeset. Not even a ballpoint pen! No. Using a quill and an ink pot, he wrote close to a thousand books.... by hand.

**sigh** Whateva. Point is, white people's genius is destruction, not creation. All those philosophies have a basis in African, not European thought.

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No, but I will look it up.

Wow. You ARE young. I'll look up the Jim Jones thread.

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True, it isn't the minister's job to cure the worldly ills, but if I am trying to combat worldly ills, why would I hand my movement over to a minister?

Prolly because no movement belongs to any one individual. A mass movement would entail hundreds, thousands, tens of, etc. If those other folk feel a minister is the best leader, they follow him.... just like the Germans followed a failed artist turned house painter.

Even better, how would a movement addressing worldly ills be successful if people's only intellectual support is a minister? The Bible and the Koran say nothing about forming parties, organizing protest, and provide no theory of social change?

Where are you getting this from? The people's "only intellectual support is a minister?" What does that mean - the people are stupid, there is NO intellectual support among them? What? :headscratch:

Didn't Malcolm say we need to stop singing and start swinging?

And Jessie said to cut us in or cut it out. :dunno:

Edit:

Jim Jones and Jonestown revisited - absolute power corrupts absolutely
http://www.cocoalounge.org/viewthread.php?tid=50428&page=1#pid617291

roarin1

Roaring

Posts: 1622
Registered: 3.22.2005
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Mood: always power

posted on 7.23.2010 at 02:58 PM

cornel west (and those like'm--michael eric dyson, tavis smiley, thomas sowell ect) is nothing beyond an educated fool--re: from whence the term comes....

I would laugh 'cept it is from the twisted imput of such mental midgets of euro-'status,' that too many power-tote-in' krakkkas glean they're 'perspective' of the Black Community at large.......and that ain't funny.

Oh and the video----would'nt of even considered watching it anyhow however, I'M convinced that it is but a waste of video tape.

The ROARIN One.........

( Knowledge; in Defense of OUR People )

Tea_Honey

Cocoa Lounge Royalty

Posts: 16497
Registered: 8.18.2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: One Happy Camper

posted on 7.23.2010 at 06:43 PM

Tell us how you really feel, Roarin.

pssssst! That's why I like you. You cut to the chase! :tu:

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Cocoa Lounge » The X Factor » The Ascendancy of Obama, The Continued Need for Resistance and Liberation:A Dialogue with Cornel West and Carl Dix

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